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Video6655 words16 insights7 practices0 outputsGemini video evidence02:59:48Andrew HubermanOpen source 7/30/2026

# Ido Portal: How to Build Discipline, Access Willpower & Use Play to Rewire Your Brain | Huberman Lab Podcast



Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz8chJwh3S4

Creator: Andrew Huberman

Original language: English

Duration: 02:59:48



## Source orientation

Andrew Huberman interviews movement teacher Ido Portal on Movement Culture, exploring the distinctions between discipline, motivation, and willpower, as well as the neurological and somatic benefits of playfulness, liminal sleep states, micro-practices, and overcoming emotional rigidity. Ido Portal and Andrew Huberman discuss movement granularity, emotional complexity, neural circuitry, and physical practice, emphasizing presence and depth over low-resolution habits. In this final hour, Andrew Huberman and Ido Portal discuss the neurobiology of sensory perception, relationships as infinite games, allostasis and grief, aesthetic perception in art and music, body schema models, Feldenkrais, sensory illusions, air sense in elite athletes, Nikolai Bernstein's motor abundance principle, and the distinction between superficial aesthetic movement and authentic physical adaptability.



## Time-coded evidence

[00:00-00:52] Speaker: Ido Portal
Discipline is very important, but it is similar to the wall in learning to do a handstand. If you use the wall one way where you are pushing yourself off the wall trying to catch your handstand, you become reliant on the wall. But we can use the wall and pull off of it from our hands and connection to the ground. That does not necessitate a wall. Discipline should be used as scaffolding to get things going, but inside the process, you must bring playfulness, relaxation, and deep choice.
Visual evidence: Text on screen: IN THIS EPISODE HUBERMAN LAB.

[00:52-01:02] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Visual evidence: Title graphics on screen displaying HUBERMAN LAB.

[01:02-03:15] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
I am Andrew Huberman, professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Ido Portal, a world-renowned movement teacher and founder of Movement Culture. Today we discuss movement, deliberate awareness, language, meditation practices, discipline, willpower, and play to rewire default operating systems.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman sitting at a podcast desk speaking directly to the camera.

[03:15-04:09] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Ido Portal, welcome back. What has been your first thought on waking most consistently over the last year? Ido: The most important thing that exists: achieving deep transformation in people and in myself, and asking why we are missing it and what is required.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman and Ido Portal seated opposite each other at a podcast desk.

[04:09-05:36] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Do you spend time in the liminal state between sleep and awake? Ido: Sometimes. I have experienced sleep paralysis and various in-betweens. Through meditation and somatic practices, you get to know the territory and can stabilize fragile states, making crossing sleep boundaries a slow-motion journey.
Visual evidence: Camera alternates between Andrew and Ido speaking.

[05:36-07:29] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: Most people have a binary perception of sleep and wakefulness, making them hard to stabilize. Heading towards sleep and taking a sharp left turn before sleeping resets the system and changes rigid schemas and models without needing psychedelics. Sleep provides a daily transition to recalibrate our models.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures with his hands while speaking to Andrew.

[07:29-08:25] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Do you intentionally wake in the middle of the night to experience being mostly awake yet somewhat asleep? Ido: Yes, practices like lucid dreaming, dream yoga, or sleep yoga use this. Waking mid-night allows you to appreciate a different state, and sometimes more can be gained from a bad night's sleep than a good one.
Visual evidence: Andrew listening attentively as Ido speaks.

[08:25-09:49] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Years ago while grieving my graduate advisor's death, someone suggested setting an alarm for 3 to 4 AM to grieve when my defenses were down. It allowed intense mourning and seemed to work. Ido: That is the point. The membranes surrounding our internal models protect them, but changing scenarios radically increases chances to recalibrate. Micro-dosing practices repeatedly can be more effective than high-intensity events.
Visual evidence: Andrew sharing a personal story, followed by Ido responding with hand gestures.

[09:49-11:20] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: I started a pre-sleep prayer practice years ago and haven't missed a night, finding value in the consistency. Ido: Consistency is key; gentle, repeating micro-practices help shift default states.
Visual evidence: Shot of Andrew speaking and nodding.

[11:20-13:55] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Regarding micro-practices, how long do you meditate, and do you use short pauses throughout the day? Ido: Long retreats create a trampoline effect but can cause dependency that is hard to bring into daily life. I aim for 24-hour daily practice through micro-doses. One great practice is keeping a problem in front of your mind while walking around, training yourself not to lose awareness of it.
Visual evidence: Camera switches between Ido and Andrew discussing meditation methods.

[13:55-16:17] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
A quick message from our sponsors: RORA countertop water filtration removes harmful contaminants like PFAS while preserving minerals. Also, ROKA red-lens glasses filter short-wavelength light in the evening to preserve melatonin and keep cortisol low.
Visual evidence: Andrew sitting alone at the studio desk presenting sponsor products.

[16:17-18:36] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Richie Davidson noted that beginning sitting meditation often causes an initial spike in anxiety, acting as stress inoculation. Is that second channel of consciousness what you seek? Ido: Anxiety is an under-reduced state where the protective membrane fails to adjust, bleeding metabolic resources. Lowering the bar through micro-tasks—using tennis balls, sticks, or physical movement—helps achieve transformation without dogmatic sitting meditation.
Visual evidence: Andrew talking about scientific research; Ido explaining somatic tools.

[18:36-20:28] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Science knows little about waking states compared to sleep stages. How should people describe their internal waking state? Ido: We made a mistake asking who we are instead of what we are. We need a map of what is required and observed, drawing internal boundaries to differentiate states.
Visual evidence: Andrew leaning back listening; Ido elaborating on self-observation.

[20:28-22:45] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: I don't believe in listen to your body because people are often too corrupted to listen accurately. Andrew: That phrase gained popularity from trauma concepts like The Body Keeps the Score, suggesting internal pain or blockages need release.
Visual evidence: Andrew holding his cup while discussing popular somatic literature.

[22:45-24:45] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Ideas about trauma stored in fascia hit a wall, and we need better questions. Ido: Framing negative states versus excitement is very similar, so working purely from likes or dislikes doesn't make sense. Doing what you want is often the last thing you should do.
Visual evidence: Andrew and Ido conversing across the desk.

[24:45-28:00] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: What percentage of your time is spent in playful exploration versus structured discipline? Ido: Discipline and motivation are scaffolding, not the essential will. We often replace pure will with discipline. Playfulness, awe, and curiosity allow us to transform rigid emotional schemas and access deep choice.
Visual evidence: Andrew asking questions from his notes; Ido explaining the distinction between discipline and play.

[28:00-30:25] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: Playfulness allows me to go deeper without rigidifying when working with athletes, artists, or military groups. Discipline alone leaves the totality of yourself out.
Visual evidence: Ido speaking intently with hand gestures.

[30:25-34:05] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: I recall a commute in San Diego where I decided to playfully slalom my car through traffic while listening to music. That single journey remains a vivid flashbulb memory. Ido: The quality and resolution of those memories reflect a heightened presence that playfulness unlocks.
Visual evidence: Andrew sharing a driving anecdote; Ido listening and commenting.

[34:05-35:53] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: I tried approaching book writing with relaxed intentionality, but I had to force myself into it. Ido: That belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Discipline is useful scaffolding to complete tasks, but how you write leaks into the words.
Visual evidence: Andrew gesturing about writing struggles; Ido responding.

[35:53-38:39] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: Discipline is like using a wall for a handstand. You use it as scaffolding, but you pull off from your connection to the ground rather than leaning hard into it. You must bring playfulness and relaxation so that you do it because you want to.
Visual evidence: Ido demonstrating hand position movements above the desk.

[38:39-41:11] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: Willpower cannot be developed; it is exposed. Discipline is what gets developed. To practice will, you must start with a task you don't want to do, but without forcing or motivating yourself.
Visual evidence: Ido explaining the concept of exposing will.

[41:11-44:23] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: The practice of will requires finding a task you sometimes don't want to do, catching yourself in that moment, relaxing without self-motivation or YouTube clips, and gradually building up difficult physical postures like holding arms out or horse stance when tired.
Visual evidence: Ido holding his arms straight out sideways to demonstrate a physical posture task.

[44:23-47:20] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: Do you still experience resistance on days after practicing movement for years? Ido: Of course. Resistance is required for will to exist. When jetlagged or tired, I play internal games and stay attentive to internal sensations rather than hardening against the resistance.
Visual evidence: Ido touching his face and jaw to illustrate internal awareness games.

[47:20-48:40] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
A quick break to acknowledge our sponsor AG1, a foundational nutritional drink containing vitamins, minerals, probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to support gut health, immunity, and overall energy.
Visual evidence: Andrew sitting in front of the camera presenting AG1.

[48:40-51:25] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: The anterior midcingulate cortex (aMCC) activates when we force ourselves to do things we don't want to do, providing a neural basis for tenacity. Play, however, lacks a single neural correlate but conserves energy compared to catecholamine-driven push. Ido: Play allows multistability—feeling resistance while maintaining softness without collapsing.
Visual evidence: Andrew explaining brain structures (aMCC); Ido responding with hand gestures.

[51:25-53:11] Speaker: Ido Portal, Andrew Huberman
Ido: Learning about science and anatomy helped me evaluate my internal experience and see where I was fooling myself.
Visual evidence: Ido talking calmly across the desk.

[53:11-56:18] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: How can someone pull back from unwanted stimuli or habits in a playful manner? Ido: Investigate past moments of presence. Studying brief moments of playfulness helps transform rigid models, even in depression, because playfulness provides the softness needed to approach new attributes.
Visual evidence: Andrew asking about breaking bad habits; Ido discussing emotional rigidity.

[56:18-01:00:02] Speaker: Andrew Huberman, Ido Portal
Andrew: I used to give my phone to lab students or throw it on the roof to force focus while writing grants. Ido: Pulling back by deleting an app or taking drastic steps pays up front, but over time you learn to soften into resistance, exposing the thread of true will rather than relying on harsh discipline.
Visual evidence: Andrew describing past extreme focus tactics; Ido explaining softening into resistance as the video concludes.

[01:00:00-01:00:57] Speaker: Ido Portal
you back again and again and again, and you've developed this feedback. You've changed, you've transformed your model, and there is a new reaction to that stimulus, and you relax. When the stimulus calls your name, you recognize it, note it, and the first thing that you do, you soften yourself, you relax, you put a little smile on. And only then do you go back to the task at hand. You change the way, instead of saying, 'No, I don't want to go back into social media now, I want to work on my book' and forcing yourself back, you take another extra step. 'Oh, it's calling my name again. I noted it, I recognized it, I soften myself,' and only then do I go back to the task at hand. The outcome would be totally different millions of times forward, done again and again. You would be amazed by the difference.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal gestures with hands at the podcast desk.

[01:00:57-01:01:34] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
I absolutely get what you're saying. There's something about paying attention to the subtle ripples. Like there are these ripples, and that language of the subtle ripples of consciousness makes it sound like I'm trying to be poetic, but I really can't find a better language than these subtle ripples. It's the same thing, I believe, as noticing the transition between asleep and awake, just a little bit more each day. Maybe some days you miss it, you just pop up and go into the day, and then you realize, 'I missed the ripples in between.' But catching them...
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman nods and gestures while responding.

[01:01:34-01:02:22] Speaker: Ido Portal
This is one of the most important attributes, also in the physical body, that I believe is totally missing from our physical modern movement culture, physical practice: granularity. I call it bodily resolution in the application to the body. Notice I'm not talking about mobility or definitely not about flexibility. There is a certain refinement and with it a certain complexity that if it's not challenged by novelty and by certain qualities of attention, there is a deterioration of the model. There is a simplification, there is a hardening of the body schema. It becomes more black-and-whiteish, and living in this physical form becomes hell.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal gestures to emphasize movement granularity.

[01:02:22-01:02:59] Speaker: Ido Portal
The same thing happens in the emotional schema, in the emotional model of ourselves, and the same thing happens on the conceptual or intellectual abstraction model. The same thing happens in the social schema, spatial schema. If you don't continue to make it detailed and to appreciate the details, you will have a deterioration. You're moving up or down, there is no status quo, it's never stable. Hence, guess what, most people going to the gym, doing these runs...
Visual evidence: Ido Portal moves hands to illustrate dimensional schemas.

[01:02:59-01:03:34] Speaker: Ido Portal
...they totally lost something and they don't even know. They're not as they were as children. They don't look like that kung fu master in Beijing at 5 AM at the park, walking with the strut of a child. We like to mention Blue Zones, but you don't look like the Blue Zones. We like to mention the importance of muscle mass for longevity, but which muscle mass are you talking about? Not that muscle mass. It's a different quantity.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal speaks intently about posture and muscle quality.

[01:03:34-01:04:12] Speaker: Ido Portal
So we kind of moved away from those fine things, and the refinement of them is very, very important. Emotionally, the emotional granularity to recognize is so important. Depression puts everything into the black-and-white thing, so it's the extreme. And then the other side is very high resolution of emotional appreciation and perception that can turn against you, but only when the conceptual layer comes and manipulates that information.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal gestures to show emotional spectrum contrast.

[01:04:12-01:05:20] Speaker: Ido Portal
But as long as it stays within the non-discursive, the raw thing coming from this allostatic system, the way that we define our state like poetry, that's why reading poetry and literature helps in this way. It makes you a lot more complex, and now you discover it's not a good or bad thing anymore, but you're playing a different game, and here is the playfulness back. Because I'm even playing a game with that: 'Oh, I feel bad, I feel good, I feel neutral.' That thing starts to open up. I abandon this, and I go back to the body. And that's why I like to send people back to the body. The 'I' is a lot more this than what we think it is, especially meditators, etc. It's not up here.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal points to his chest and head during discussion.

[01:05:20-01:06:15] Speaker: Ido Portal
And of course, they are talking about it, the way of the heart, the hara, the dan tian, etc. But you can see when somebody is embodied. There are signs, cues to it in the way that people move, in the way that they are here. And I often don't see those clues, and then there is a great deterioration. So I don't care so much about structures these days, about muscle mass, about joint protective things, connective tissue, because I believe the model deteriorates way before and the consequences come after. Once the model has degraded, the simulation, now we are in trouble. And now structural effects are just following that years and decades forward, and then we discover it's too late.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal discusses inner body centers and physical degradation.

[01:06:15-01:07:27] Speaker: Ido Portal
Words are dangerous. Like 'the spinal column'. You know how many spines this destroyed? Countless. It's not a column, and treating it like a column destroys our spine. It's the way that I model myself, even in my words. I can sense that, feel that. Different languages have different words for those things, and clues are there. The lack of appreciation of fine micro-actions inside the torso, in between the ribs, we don't appreciate it, the way that we distribute pressure in the body. Practices that I engage with, teach, work with, they're very powerful, but we don't leave room for that. We want to do something quickly, crudely, and we deteriorate. And then we go to protocols, help, 'Help me.' And yeah, there is some help there, but to lift it into a meaningful healing is not often done, because the practice is missing.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal places hands over torso to indicate rib cage movement.

[01:07:27-01:08:14] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
The notion of high resolution versus low resolution: language, movement, and awareness. Maybe we just grab those three, and I know there are others. Think about this a lot. Let's start with language. Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a psychologist and neuroscientist studying emotion, she's been very clear, and it's absolutely true, that in cultures where there are many words to describe different aspects of sadness, aspects of happiness, even extremely specific circumstances, like a Japanese word for the sadness one feels after a bad haircut, the more nuance and specificity, the less likely people default to 'I'm sad, I'm depressed,' throwing themselves in a broad bin.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman references research by Lisa Feldman Barrett.

[01:08:14-01:09:31] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
And I refer to it as the 'emojification' of mental life. 'I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm depressed.' I do think that it's nice to have a range of language ability so you can talk to people of different backgrounds. A colleague of mine at NYU, Tony Movshon, described an intellectual beautifully, and you certainly fit this description: an intellectual is somebody who can talk about and work with a concept at multiple levels of granularity appropriate for the conversation. This is the advantage of reading more challenging books at times, or kids' books, which deliver the message succinctly. There's real value to working up and down the ladder in language and having that at one's disposal.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman gestures ladder scales with his hands.

[01:09:31-01:10:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
And here is another practice. We go back to being pragmatic: ambiguity, incompleteness. Do you bring it about?
Visual evidence: Ido Portal speaks directly to Huberman.

[01:10:00-01:10:40] Speaker: Ido Portal
Not having everything resolved, not only in terms of problem-solving or a physical, kinetic koan. Reading puzzling, symbolic texts, parables, difficult to resolve things, and maybe never resolve things. Or movies, watch Tarkovsky, Jodorowsky. It's a very different experience than Hollywood. Or watching contemporary dance that is contemporary in the sense that I can't define it. It's happening right now and I'm not sure what I'm even watching here.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal talks about unresolved cinema and dance.

[01:10:40-01:11:33] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
I've been taken to some contemporary dance where I thought 'I don't know what I'm watching.' Erich Jarvis, a guest on the podcast and neuroscientist who was going to be part of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company before studying language in neuroscience, says the species of birds that can talk are also the ones that can dance. He thinks bodily movement, based on genetics of language where speech areas share similar gene motifs with movement areas, is the fundamental language. I need to get you two in the same room at some point and just listen.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman shares research from neuroscientist Erich Jarvis.

[01:11:33-01:12:40] Speaker: Ido Portal
If everything depends on language, we also have to be careful, because then the granularity of language will be the limiting factor. Words are corrupted, and they're corrupting us. They're supposed to be containers, but they're pointers, and we've lost what they're pointing at. The simulacrum versus the simulation. Simulation is something that creates a model of something real; simulacrum is disconnected, there is no longer that real thing.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal uses Lego analogies for linguistic structure.

[01:12:40-01:13:40] Speaker: Ido Portal
When I investigated this deeply with myself, I don't believe there is an inherent difference between these two, but there is definitely critical masses that can be achieved. For example, the sensorimotor thing is a lot less corrupted than the conceptual schema. Even that is not reality. Senses don't bring reality, they model reality, they are simulation machines. Which means ignoring uniqueness, erasing differences for the sake of communicating it to the system, even on the level of sensation, because we would be crushed by reality if the bandwidth is opened fully.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal gestures broadly to indicate overwhelming reality.

[01:13:40-01:15:19] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Certainly if it was opened all at once. This is what happens with psychedelics, where there's bandwidth expansion, too much cross-talk. In studies of psilocybin for major depression, the most consistent observation in the brain is a lot more connectivity between areas that weren't communicating prior, offering new opportunities for insight and integration. But one of the hallmark definitions of psychosis is clang associations, where people follow rhyming or linguistic associations in a meaningless way. Plasticity and cross-connectivity aren't always good if it impairs functionality.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman discusses psilocybin brain scans and psychosis.

[01:15:19-01:16:40] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't...
Visual evidence: Sponsor presentation for Element electrolyte mix.

[01:16:40-01:18:14] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
In terms of movement, I absolutely agree. People not exercising or moving enough approximate an internally rotated C-shape. If people take on an exercise program—walking, raising heart rate, lifting objects to get stronger—should people do all of that and then think about the language of movement, or if given the choice, start with many forms of movement? Practical question: someone has 30 minutes a day, needs zone 3-4 cardio and lifting, and asks if they now must pay attention to subtle ripples of movement.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman asks about exercise priorities.

[01:18:14-01:19:50] Speaker: Ido Portal
I'll push back. The question is already corrupted. First, it's an exercise approach to physicality: 'I have 30 minutes a day.' What do you do with the rest of your time? What do we do that is so important that we don't have time to pay attention to ripples of movement when living our lives, cooking, listening? We are not using this time well. Even highly productive people are never using time well in the sense of presence. What I'm suggesting is a paradigm shift in viewing physicality day-to-day. When I'm listening to you, I'm also in the physical experience of what is occurring right now.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal challenges time-chunked exercise concepts.

[01:19:50-01:21:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
We need better education and better tools. And this is the new limiting factor. Even AI recognizes it more, and it will become the crucial component: the body. Sensory symbols popping out when a symbol comes to mind, those impressions are so important. Without them, there is nothing. What is the raw currency of cognition, of that abstraction schema? There's primal semantics, phenomenology, or invariance—something that does not change no matter how you look at it.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal speaks on AI and bodily currency.

[01:21:00-01:22:20] Speaker: Ido Portal
The best answer I found is drawing a boundary, selecting. When I look at you, I select you from the environment, creating a boundary inside my simulation. As George Spencer-Brown talks about in Laws of Form, this act of differentiation creates the most basic thought-matter. The unselected state represents entropy, the second law of thermodynamics, pulling us back. This selection and unselected state are codependent and at the root of things.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal cites George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form.

[01:22:20-01:23:40] Speaker: Ido Portal
This open presence, pre-language thing must inform language formation anyways. Trying to interact with that gentle layer transforms the body schema, and we must teach it to children. This is below exercise. Then I use exercise very efficiently once the model is addressed. I do this work with athletes, grandmas, Alzheimer's patients, musicians. This is very potent.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal describes applying movement work to diverse groups.

[01:23:40-01:24:40] Speaker: Ido Portal
Stop trying to fit me into something corrupted in that physical sense of 'I got to fit into this fitness practice or exercise idea.' Those are positive manipulations, but we stay stuck with the '30 minutes a day' idea. It becomes the unofficial practice—your way of being, drinking from a cup, sitting, listening. Much more important and potent than learning to meditate, because it is meditation in the deep sense.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal demonstrates using a mug to show informal practice.

[01:24:40-01:25:00] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
You mentioned Alzheimer's. Findings show that loss of vision or hearing, subtle or severe, can accelerate or cause deprivation symptoms of Alzheimer's, memory deprivation. Fewer inputs degrade the system.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman discusses sensory deprivation in dementia.

[01:25:00-01:26:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
In Alzheimer's, they mention feedback is damaged, but even then you must challenge the system. When I tore my rotator cuff, I rehabbed myself by moving, not putting a cast on. I treat Alzheimer's the same way: practice. Like loading the skeleton for osteoporosis—lift something heavy, pound the ground in right dosages. It is a lot more potent.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal gestures over shoulder reflecting rotator cuff injury.

[01:26:00-01:27:28] Speaker: Ido Portal
We have to change our way of looking at things. This is called practice. Life is not for living; life is for practicing. It is a school we came to, spiritually or neurologically. Viewing yourself this way will not take your life away or require more than 30 minutes; it enriches current life, but you have to go deeper into concepts to apply them correctly.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal frames life as a practice school.

[01:27:28-01:28:40] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Beautifully put. We are in a curriculum of life, and our nervous system is shaped by that, giving us agency over what we bring in.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman nods and responds.

[01:28:40-01:30:10] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Brought back to language, movement, and awareness, with levels of coarseness in each: gross motion versus subtle finger motion, grunting versus sophisticated language, grasping the whole room versus homing in on a small space. Also the time domain: segmenting experience over an hour watching clouds or watching subtle ripples of a leaf.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman details spatial and temporal awareness scales.

[01:30:10-01:31:33] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Dacher Keltner at UC Berkeley notes everyday awe is accessible when transitioning between fine and large scales in space and time. TikTok information feels low-resolution and pixelated, like a cheap sound effect, unlike the rich evening song of red-winged blackbirds in California.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman contrasts red-winged blackbirds with TikTok.

[01:31:33-01:32:00] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Consuming disproportionate low-resolution sensory input can degrade intellect. It doesn't mean only reading deep philosophy—I love three-chord Ramones songs and classical music—but stepping through from coarse to fine is crucial.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman discusses music preferences and mental resolution.

[01:32:00-01:33:18] Speaker: Ido Portal
Transition importance is key. Thinking of schemas as digestive systems or stomachs that require nutriments: What are you feeding your emotional state? Emotional foods I bring to practice: 1) Discomfort, 2) Emotional contradiction (loving and hating simultaneously, like in boxing), 3) Aesthetic intensity (awe, melancholy).
Visual evidence: Ido Portal lists emotional nutriments.

[01:33:18-01:35:19] Speaker: Ido Portal
We've removed these intensities online and in media. Restraint—stimulating while requiring restraint—is another key nutriment. Same for intellectual faculties: What is thought? Is thought just knee-jerk associative reactions? I refuse to accept it.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal questions the definition of thought.

[01:35:19-01:36:00] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Karl Deisseroth forces himself every night after putting his kids to sleep to think in complete sentences as a practice.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman describes Karl Deisseroth's mental practice.

[01:36:00-01:37:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
That is a smart, intelligent person. Most people almost never truly think; he taught himself to think. The emotional faculty is a stomach needing digestion and nutriments, and movement nutriments in gyms are often very low quality compared to dancers or high-level athletes.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal compares gym routines to athletic movement quality.

[01:37:00-01:38:35] Speaker: Ido Portal
Where did we move? To a situation where athletes are inspired by fitness people instead of fitness people being inspired by movement people.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal discusses social media influence on athletic training.

[01:38:35-01:39:56] Speaker: Ido Portal
Yes, boxers train like fitness people rather than boxers due to social media and approachability. I don't know why you brought me in today, but it might be one of the last times as it becomes less what attention calls for.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal reflects on podcast presence and public attention.

[01:39:56-01:41:38] Speaker: Ido Portal
Thank you for those positive words; they touch my heart. You went huge, but your original search isn't served by viral masses. I lament where public attention goes because the loss of depth is expensive.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal expresses appreciation to Huberman.

[01:41:38-01:43:18] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Younger generations overloaded on low resolution still hunger for real romance, depth, and granularity.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman discusses generational hunger for depth.

[01:43:18-01:44:10] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Psychiatrist Dr. K suggested meditating for 5 minutes focusing on the pause between breath cycles—kumbhaka—to notice transition points and modulate attention. What are your thoughts on noticing transitions in movement and life?
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman references Dr. K's breath pause technique.

[01:44:10-01:45:59] Speaker: Ido Portal
In that practice, you discover there is no zero point where the pendulum changes direction. It pulls you into multistability. As a child, I practiced holding my urge to pee to feel the sensation and willpower, similar to the intensity of orgasm or coldness where heat exists underneath.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal explains Kumbhaka and sensation practices.

[01:45:59-01:47:25] Speaker: Ido Portal
I once did a standing meditation in cold shallow water in Australia for an hour. By investigating the cold closely, I discovered the inner heat, and the cold vanished. I locked into the multistability and could switch between cold and heat. I use this with rhythms, reading, and even push-ups—experiencing a push-up as a pull.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal recounts standing meditation in cold water.

[01:47:25-01:48:10] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
You're describing the antagonistic nature of neural circuits—flexor and extensor, light and dark edge detection. Everything is push-pull.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman discusses antagonistic neural wiring.

[01:48:10-01:49:41] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Dayu Lin's research on the ventromedial hypothalamus showed mating and attack neurons compete in the same structure; driving one temporarily suppresses the other before it rebounds. Exploring extreme sensory states explores the opposite side of the seesaw.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman references Dayu Lin's hypothalamus study.

[01:49:41-01:51:38] Speaker: Ido Portal
You connect to it by observing multistable entities, like polyrhythms. Fighters who hear complex rhythms control the fight. Reading Jorge Luis Borges transformed my body—I used to sit in an unbearable hot tub reading his short stories to combine physical discomfort with intellectual awe.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal cites author Jorge Luis Borges and hot tub practice.

[01:51:38-01:53:56] Speaker: Ido Portal
True remorse—not self-flagellation, but conscious recognition of wrong choices—is crucial for change and climbing up from rock bottom. We must retrain emotional granularity like regaining smell after COVID.
Visual evidence: Ido Portal discusses true remorse versus self-punishment.

[01:53:56-01:55:34] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides comprehensive lab tests to give a clear snapshot of your health...
Visual evidence: Sponsor presentation for Function Health.

[01:55:34-01:57:57] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Acknowledging real remorse, guilt, or cowardice is hard but powerful. I spent time reflecting on times I failed or acted as a coward. Sitting in that reality allows one to move forward.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman reflects on acknowledging past cowardice.

[01:57:57-02:00:00] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Lately I've been nudging myself to allow grief over the passage of time without delusion of living forever. Acknowledging cowardice in past situations made me braver to lean into hardship. Our sensory apparatus and curiosity crave granularity across fine and coarse scales.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman summarizes grief over time and sensory granularity.

[02:00:00-02:02:24] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman shares a story about neuroscientist Charlie Gilbert, who skipped a graduate student lunch to preserve his sensory acuity for a fine dinner in Napa. Huberman notes how dulling our senses prevents us from appreciating subtleties.
Visual evidence: Andrew Huberman speaks at a podcast desk with dark mugs in front.

[02:02:24-02:03:18] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman transitions to relationships, framing them as multi-dimensional landscapes for exploration and growth, and asks Ido Portal to share his perspective.
Visual evidence: Cut between Huberman and Ido Portal seated at the podcast desk.

[02:03:18-02:06:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido Portal describes relationships as 'rubbing against things' to define oneself. He contrasts finite games with infinite games, explaining that true relationships are shared ongoing practices of transformation rather than fixed states.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures with his hands while speaking.

[02:06:00-02:07:32] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido emphasizes that relationships require active practice, shared presence, and mutual assistance through life's crises, serving as an infinite game of co-evolution.
Visual evidence: Ido speaks earnestly facing Huberman.

[02:07:32-02:09:50] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman shares an example of band chemistry in the Grateful Dead and how cocaine ruined their group cohesion by forcing goal-directed ego focus. Ido links this to shared body budgets and allostasis.
Visual evidence: Huberman speaks at the desk with black mugs visible in front.

[02:09:50-02:11:00] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido explains that human relationships involve sharing allostatic body budgets and internal metabolic loops. He notes that grief is devastating because a person suddenly loses a major shared metabolic resource.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures toward his chest while explaining allostasis and grief.

[02:11:00-02:13:58] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman asks if movement has an analog to music where lyrics or sounds convey visceral truth beyond literal words. Ido explains aesthetic value beyond symbol, contrasting intellectual knowing with deep bodily understanding.
Visual evidence: Huberman holds his hands together listening intently.

[02:13:58-02:15:58] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido contrasts live in-person communication with digital interactions. He quotes Sister Corita Kent: 'Always leave room for X quantities'—acknowledging the unknown factors that give practice its magic.
Visual evidence: Ido uses expansive hand gestures while discussing presence.

[02:15:58-02:17:51] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman discusses visual art, referencing Mark Rothko and Andy Warhol to illustrate how artists extract essential experience without explicit framing.
Visual evidence: Huberman speaks while leaning forward.

[02:17:51-02:20:01] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido explains that master painters intentionally distort perspective and form because the human eye and brain do not function like a mechanical camera.
Visual evidence: Ido moves his hands around his head to illustrate visual perception.

[02:20:01-02:22:20] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido discusses movement models (skeletal, neuromuscular, fascia, liquidity). He highlights the principle 'all models are wrong, but some are useful' and shows how updating a model can immediately cure physical ailments.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures around his torso and spine.

[02:22:20-02:25:03] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman and Ido discuss Moshe Feldenkrais's 'Awareness Through Movement' and how rapidly changing body schema models can relieve pain, questioning why people often desensitize themselves to this potential.
Visual evidence: Huberman listens attentively while Ido explains.

[02:25:03-02:27:21] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido demonstrates tactile and proprioceptive illusions, including the Pinocchio illusion and fingertip alignment, showing how sensory perception and self-image can flip instantaneously.
Visual evidence: Ido and Huberman reach across the table and touch their index fingertips together to demonstrate the perceptual illusion.

[02:27:21-02:30:03] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido stresses that 'moments of freshness' and focused awareness are far more potent for physical and emotional transformation than high-volume repetition.
Visual evidence: Ido speaks dynamically with open hand gestures.

[02:30:03-02:31:36] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman reflects on the importance of cultivating everyday subtle awareness instead of constantly waiting for rare peak experiences.
Visual evidence: Huberman nods in agreement.

[02:31:36-02:35:03] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman and Ido discuss integrating movement awareness into conventional workouts, such as bench presses or daily commuting, by shifting attention and perspective.
Visual evidence: Ido simulates a bench press motion with his hands.

[02:35:03-02:37:23] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman brings up 'air sense' in elite action sports, using skateboarder Antuan Dixon as an example of an athlete who maintains composure and arm stability while airborne.
Visual evidence: Huberman gestures to demonstrate keeping arms low while jumping.

[02:37:23-02:39:07] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido explains 'air sense' as spatial orientation cultivated by acrobats and skateboarders using trampolines and foam pits, asking Huberman about the underlying vestibular mechanisms.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures to indicate flipping and turning in the air.

[02:39:07-02:41:36] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman discusses top vert skateboarders (Tom Schaar, Tony Hawk, Danny Way, Bob Burnquist, Jimmy Wilkins) and how speed, hip flexibility, and air time enable complex tricks.
Visual evidence: Huberman gestures to illustrate speed and height on a vertical ramp.

[02:41:36-02:45:03] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido cites Nikolai Bernstein's biomechanics research in Soviet factories, demonstrating that expert workers exhibited higher joint trajectory variability to achieve lower outcome variability.
Visual evidence: Ido demonstrates hammering motions to illustrate joint trajectory variability.

[02:45:03-02:47:28] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido compares a boxer's jab to a kung fu punch, arguing that real movement mastery requires adaptability to chaotic conditions rather than rigid, static form.
Visual evidence: Ido demonstrates punching and parrying motions.

[02:47:28-02:50:36] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman references skateboarders Rayssa Leal and John Cardiel, discussing chaos and raw performance. Ido warns against aiming for aesthetic beauty directly, calling beauty a side effect of functional mastery.
Visual evidence: Huberman and Ido exchange thoughts on skateboarders.

[02:50:36-02:54:03] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido critiques modern fitness trends like isolated glute hypertrophy training ('plastic surgery of exercise') and contrasts them with functional adaptability, tricking vs real sport, and Diego Maradona warming up with untied laces.
Visual evidence: Ido gestures while critiquing superficial aesthetic training.

[02:54:03-02:55:03] Speaker: Ido Portal
Ido emphasizes that true physical culture comes from engaging with practice, refining internal models, and accepting malleability in all aspects of life.
Visual evidence: Ido speaks directly to Huberman with focused expressions.

[02:55:03-02:57:12] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman expresses deep gratitude to Ido Portal for his profound insights across physical movement, neuroscience, and philosophy, inviting him back for future discussions.
Visual evidence: Huberman and Ido smile and thank each other.

[02:57:12-02:59:48] Speaker: Andrew Huberman
Huberman delivers the podcast concluding remarks, summarizing ways to support the podcast, details about his book 'Protocols', social media channels, and the Neural Network Newsletter.
Visual evidence: Huberman sits solo facing camera in studio closing shot, followed by Huberman Lab podcast end graphic and SciComm Media slate.